093 - Breaking into Commercial Photography and Staying Creative with Photographer Katie Goldie
[00:00:00] How's it going everybody. Welcome back to the podcast.
[00:00:04] I'm Robert Massey this is the Travel and Adventure Photography School thank you so much for joining me here today.
[00:00:10] I'm really excited for this week's episode. I went on a walk [00:00:15] with the fantastic Katie Goldie. She is a local photographer here in Banff has about 200,000 followers on Instagram alone and is just a remarkable creative with a great business sense.
[00:00:26] This week, Katie is giving us insights into how she broke into the world of commercial [00:00:30] photography, how she got herself up and going into this, and also. Some of her favorite moments that she's had happened and the way that she keeps inspiring her creativity, even when she gets into her own head, it's a great conversation that ranges across a great [00:00:45] spectrum of things. I think everybody needs to learn a little bit about, and it was just a lot of fun. So come and join us on the fenlands trail in Banff and come for a walk with the fantastic Katie Goldie. [00:01:00]
[00:01:01] Robert: Welcome back, everybody. This is Robert Massey of the Travel and Adventure Photography School Podcast.
[00:01:06] We are out walking on a trail in Banff, beside the Bow River, headed to the Fenlands Trail this time, and I am here with Katie Goldie, who is a fabulous [00:01:15] photographer and local creative here in Banff. Katie, do you want to say hi?
[00:01:18] Katie Goldie: Hi, Everyone
[00:01:19] Robert: Awesome. Katie, do you want to introduce everybody just a little bit to the work that you do?
[00:01:23] Katie Goldie: Yeah, so my name, as Robert said, is Katie Goldie and I've been shooting marketing, [00:01:30] slash, commercial, slash, Instagram influencing, all sorts of things for the last seven or eight years. Kind of started, sparked from Instagram.
[00:01:39] People were really enjoying my work on there and encouraged me to keep shooting. And then it developed and,[00:01:45] slowly progressed into a commercial job for me. So, I started shooting a lot of commercial work for tourism companies. Worldwide really. And, been really getting into that. And now I'm just, now I'm at a place where I'm just stepping back a little [00:02:00] bit.
[00:02:00] And, kind of, looking back on all my great adventures. And just enjoying life more.
[00:02:05] Oh, that sounds amazing. Yeah.
[00:02:07] Robert: Let's go back. Commercial, when you say that, what does that mean for people so they can understand?
[00:02:11] Katie Goldie: So, commercial might mean a lot of things to a lot of [00:02:15] people, but for me it's more for marketing purposes for large businesses.
[00:02:19] These are the photos that you're gonna see on billboards, or these are the photos you're gonna see in a brochure or a photo you're gonna see for their marketing purposes. Could even [00:02:30] scope into. There are social media channels for them but mainly it's for print or digital advertising.
[00:02:37] Robert: Really. It's a step above just doing branding work for people. Exactly, yeah. You're stepping into the actual making the marketing for them and helping to influence a [00:02:45] campaign and doing all that work.
[00:02:46] Katie Goldie: Yeah, and following, yeah, following their brand guidelines and what they want to see reflected through their brand through a photo.
[00:02:51] And then usually they hire me because it aligns with their brand. So they've seen my work before and they know that it'll align with what they want to, [00:03:00] want to shoot and what they want to have their outward facing brand look like.
[00:03:04] Robert: Very cool. You also have quite a substantial following on social media, right?
[00:03:09] Katie Goldie: Yeah, got there.
[00:03:11] Robert: So you got there eventually?
[00:03:12] Katie Goldie: Got there eventually, yeah.
[00:03:14] Robert: What came first? Was it [00:03:15] your social media following and then you created the work after it or kind of how did that start arising? The chicken or the egg? Yeah, the chicken or the egg.
[00:03:22] Katie Goldie: It was definitely Instagram first because I was actually working in daycare for about five years before I started [00:03:30] into photography.
[00:03:31] And so I was planning on taking over my mother's business. But it wasn't really my true passion. So I, I kind of took photography as a hobby and ended up shooting with a lot of other creatives when [00:03:45] Instagram was just starting up and just starting to get really fun and people were sharing a lot of creativity on there. This was right when it started, maybe two years into Instagram's infancy and at that point. I wanted to go traveling because I was so inspired [00:04:00] and so many people were encouraging me to keep shooting.
[00:04:03] Because online, there was just so much love and so much sharing of the work I was doing that it just kept encouraging me to keep reaching further and getting better shots and going to [00:04:15] other places.
[00:04:16] And then I decided to take a two month trip to New Zealand solo just to get away travel before I was really put into this business. And when I was on that trip, I just realized that I just couldn't go back to working a nine to five, [00:04:30] that this was just what was meant for me.
[00:04:32] At that point, I was getting enough brands and enough business through my Instagram that I could not work if I didn't want to. I was making enough money through the Instagram platform that I [00:04:45] didn't have to work. So I kind of went with it. Everything went, kind of went with the flow with me. So I was quite safe through the whole thing.
[00:04:52] I wasn't left without a job. And yeah, at that point, it just kind of snowballed from there and hit, I would say it hit the [00:05:00] peak. I think it was almost right before COVID happened. And then COVID happened and kind of really threw us all back a little bit. But, you know, it was a good progression.
[00:05:11] Had a lot of great years of shooting a lot of great things and going to a [00:05:15] lot of cool places. So that kind of worked out for me. And then it picked up a bit after COVID. And then things in my life have changed a bit. So it's kind of slowed down again. But it's been a good change, not an unprepared one.
[00:05:27] I was actually, wanting to slow down a little bit.
[00:05:29] Robert: Cause you were going [00:05:30] pretty hard there for quite a while to make this happen and to make your freelance work happen. Hey.
[00:05:35] Katie Goldie: Yeah. So it was definitely, definitely a few years. And I also lived in New Zealand for four years cause I had met my ex partner there.
[00:05:43] So I would actually [00:05:45] come home and I would fly home for three months at a time to work and I would work for three months and then I'd fly back to New Zealand for a couple of months. But when I came home for those three months, it was back to back trips, non stop. I wouldn't really take a break.[00:06:00]
[00:06:00] I had a lot of work lined up for me. And it just, I don't know what seemed to happen for me, but it was just lucky. There was very few jobs I had to turn down due to timing, which just was really surprising to me because... You know, when you live in another country, you would assume [00:06:15] that I would be turning down a lot of work.
[00:06:17] But it just all fell into these months that I came home. So it was just really good timing. So. That is spectacular. Yeah, it doesn't really often happen with freelance. I was just very fortunate.
[00:06:27] Robert: Let's take that step back to the beginning when you started in your [00:06:30] photography journey and you look back to versus where you are now. What would you, what would you tell the people? What was the one thing that you would really say, would be a great tip or for somebody to know who is at that beginning point of their journey now?
[00:06:42] Katie Goldie: Just don't doubt yourself. I would say. If you [00:06:45] feel like it's good and you feel like people are liking it and you, and you have this, passion for something and the sparks go with it. Don't have any self doubt because if you really love what you do and people are liking what you're doing then it's probably a good product and so [00:07:00] having that doubt will kind of kill your creativity, so that would be my best tip is just go with it and and say yes to things.
[00:07:07] I think I was really successful through this whole process of my photography career because I just didn't say no to things or projects. [00:07:15] I tried to keep my schedule open as I could. I tried to do as much as I could. I still know my worth, so I still had a worth on my projects, but I didn't say no.
[00:07:27] And I think that's why it flowed so nicely.
[00:07:29] Robert: You had a [00:07:30] very Jim Carrey mentality
[00:07:31] Katie Goldie: from Yes Man.
[00:07:31] Yeah, I did. And honestly, I find in my present day life that I say no more, and I get less out of life. So I honestly think it really comes down to just being open to every [00:07:45] experience and to every opportunity and saying no is truly like the cancellation of creativity and the cancellation of being open to something new, so I really think that you just have to, as much as you [00:08:00] can, say yes to things that you want to do.
[00:08:02] Don't say yes to things you don't want to do, but say yes to things that you really want to do and you're passionate about.
[00:08:07] Robert: What's the coolest thing that you've gotten the chance to say yes to? What's that thing that sticks out in your head?
[00:08:12] Katie Goldie: Oh, there's a lot, more is great, that's not a bad thing.
[00:08:14] Yeah, I [00:08:15] mean, I couldn't pinpoint one thing. Memorable experiences, oh, there's so many. A lot of my local travels in Canada have been really memorable. So, I did a trip to Newfoundland where they allowed me to bring my mom [00:08:30] with me. Because I just said, oh, well, if she pays for her own trip, can she just stay in my room?
[00:08:35] And, you know, they were like, that's fine. Because a lot of times when I'm doing these Instagram trips or these photoshoot trips. Sometimes it's just me shooting, and they just give me an [00:08:45] itinerary, and so it's nice to have someone with you. I brought my mom, and that was probably one of my most memorable trips, because there was whales every day off the coast, and there was icebergs, and they put us on so many excursions, and things that I just could never afford on my own.[00:09:00]
[00:09:00] And it was just so... Great to see it through her eyes. Because she isn't one to go out and experience those things. It was just wonderful to share that with my mom. And so that was one of the great experiences. And then another experience[00:09:15] I just actually recently went to Saudi Arabia.
[00:09:17] That one was super cultural. And so I got to see this other side of the world and see all these people's doubts about a place and actually see it for myself and see if they were true. And I actually really, really love the [00:09:30] place. There was just, I felt super safe there. It was really fancy, such a fancy trip and like it was just an interesting place to go.
[00:09:40] I also think. That when you do go to these places, that can be [00:09:45] controversial, you open your mind to new things. And you actually get to see it first hand. So, you can actually, take judgements on your own. Rather than just hear about things from other people. So, I also think that's why travel has been so [00:10:00] influential in my life and so important in my life.
[00:10:01] It's cause it builds you and it rounds you as a person better. And, you can actually... Take things firsthand, rather than always just learning about them through media or books. This is your experience, and you can [00:10:15] own that. Other experiences, I mean, I did an amazing trip to Manitoba, and... Got to swim with beluga whales, which was pretty awesome.
[00:10:24] I've been to Alaska and got to ride the train up there and do a little [00:10:30] carrier plane around Denali, which was pretty amazing. And so yeah, every trip that I've done has been like jaw droppingly good. Yeah, so that's kind of, it's kind of hard to pinpoint one because they've all been so great. And I take every [00:10:45] experience with me as I go and I am thankful for every experience I've been given even in this time of, you know, a little bit more quietness in my life. It's just so great to look back on those memories and know that those are the things that I did in my life and that I get to take those with me. [00:11:00] So, yeah, I guess I can't really answer that question.
[00:11:03] Robert: But you can by saying that there are so
[00:11:05] Katie Goldie: many of them. Yeah, exactly. I declined to answer. There's too many. Yeah.
[00:11:11] Robert: I actually love what you just said about travel, too, right in the midst of that one. It's like, this is the [00:11:15] reason that so many of us like to travel, is it's not hearing about it from other people, it's not hearing what other people are saying or thinking, it's, you're there and experiencing something for yourself and realizing that, really, there's so many good people and good places on this planet, and it helps open your eyes to so [00:11:30] many other ideas, and cultures,
[00:11:32] Katie Goldie: and experiences.
[00:11:32] Yeah, exactly, and you, and you see it firsthand, and so when somebody says something that you know to not be true because you've seen it firsthand, you can say, well, actually, When I was there, I experienced this for myself, [00:11:45] maybe there's a point to that, but this is my experience. And, and then you have that knowledge with you as you go, and you have a greater respect for where you live, you have a greater respect for where other people live.
[00:11:56] It just kind of goes around, and it kind of rounds you as a person, and I'm [00:12:00] really thankful to have had all those experiences, so. Beautiful.
[00:12:03] Robert: I'd love to Get a little bit into your brand work and the corporate work that you were creating and how that rolled around. Cause I think that seems like a really mysterious thing to a lot of photographers and how you land that work and that [00:12:15] process and can kind of take people through the steps from when a company approaches you to when you actually finalize the shoot and start working with them.
[00:12:22] Katie Goldie: Yeah. So, I mean, I have to give Instagram a good like recognition here. Instagram was truly [00:12:30] one of the biggest. Points of my resume, basically. So this is where brands found me. This is where brands hired me. Because basically, it was like a media kit on a page. They could see all my work.
[00:12:42] They could see that people really believed in my work, and they [00:12:45] really liked my work, cause I had so many people liking and following me. So, that was a really strong point that broke me into the commercial world. But I still only did... A lot of Instagram or brand work [00:13:00] for them or social media work for them.
[00:13:01] It still wasn't quite commercial. There was still a lot of commercial aspects to the work I was doing then, but it wasn't fully broken into the commercial world. So when I really truly broke into the commercial world, I feel like one of my [00:13:15] big brand names was Travel Alberta.
[00:13:17] They really support their community. They really support their creators. And being from Alberta, I was often used because they like to use their local photographers. And they helped me [00:13:30] develop a really strong commercial base. And most of my really great commercial photos come from the shoots I've done with them.
[00:13:37] They've really given me a great opportunity. Not to say that I haven't done a lot of work for other brands. It's just mostly been social media work for [00:13:45] them. Or work on my own page for them. So things didn't really start rolling in the commercial world until them. They came along. And then a lot of my social media jobs have transformed into commercial work as well.
[00:13:59] So, for [00:14:00] instance, I do a lot of work for Canadian Mountain Holidays, which is a helicopter company in town. And mostly started with doing social media campaigns with them. I emailed them seven or eight years ago. Just saying, oh, I would love to [00:14:15] come on a heli trip with you guys. I'd love to shoot it for my Instagram.
[00:14:19] And then they agreed, and that's how I built a relationship with them. And six years later, after I'd done a social media campaign with them every year, they were like, oh, well we don't need social [00:14:30] this year, but we would like you to do a commercial shoot for us. So, things just kind of transform. They see that my photos had transformed into something more commercial, and that's kind of how I broke into that.
[00:14:42] I also think I was successful with commercial [00:14:45] is because you have to be able to juggle a lot of balls at once. Especially with being your own business manager, having your own insurance. You know, there's just so many aspects that people don't see. It's not just shooting photos.
[00:14:57] You're behind the computer a lot. You're editing, [00:15:00] you're building a website, you're building a brand. You have to have a very good personality to talk to clients. You have to have good personable skills. to be able to go back and forth with clients and meet their needs. And yeah, so I think it's not just [00:15:15] as easy as just shooting a photo.
[00:15:16] You can be really good at shooting photos, but you've got to have all the other pieces to be really successful personally, I think. And my feedback I get the most from a lot of clients is that I am a really easy going [00:15:30] photographer to work with. I get the job done. My last client just said, Oh, we just love Katie cause we know she'll get the shot.
[00:15:38] Like, it doesn't matter where we are, what's going on, or what the weather's like, we know she's gonna get the shot. So, that was a big compliment for [00:15:45] me knowing that they have that kind of trust in me. Puts a lot of pressure on, it's also great to know that they have that kind of faith in me, so, yeah, that's kind of my best advice is to be a very well rounded business person as well, so, not just a great photographer, but[00:16:00] great behind the computer too, not tardy, always on time.
[00:16:04] Timely with your answers to people's emails and that goes a long way, you know.
[00:16:08] Robert: How do you balance out those conversations with people when you do need to be a good business person, but you also need to be a good person for yourself and [00:16:15] protect those boundaries and things? Did you ever have to navigate those difficult conversations?
[00:16:18] Katie Goldie: Oh, all the time, and especially in the Instagram world, you often ran into a lot of clients asking you for worth, less than you wanted to do or more than you wanted to do for less than you wanted, they wanted to pay. And so there's a lot of [00:16:30] conversations you have to have and that's probably one of the trickiest things about shooting photos for people commercially or brand wise or anything is really knowing your worth.
[00:16:41] And I think a lot of people do know this [00:16:45] nowadays, but I mean, it can be said again that the less you charge and the less that you know your worth. The more it hurts all the other photographers around you because what happens is if everybody just shoots something and they're doing a wonderful job and they've got a beautiful [00:17:00] product, but they shoot it for nothing, then why would they hire another person to shoot something beautiful if they could get you for nothing and you do a really good job as well?
[00:17:10] I mean, it's your own prerogative, but then if you ever want to go up somewhere, this is [00:17:15] creating a standard in the industry for a certain level, and then you're actually hurting yourself too. So... I think it comes to another point is just making sure you know what your worth is and that takes a lot of practice and it takes a lot of talking to other [00:17:30] creators and a lot of other photographers and just saying, well, what would you charge for this shoot?
[00:17:34] And there's a stigma around that, but I really, I honestly, I'm not shy about it. I have a lot of friends in the industry and if I'm really stumped on what to charge for something. I'll ask them what [00:17:45] they charge and I'll take a look at their clients and their work and their scope and I will base that on what I think I'm worth compared to them, you know, and I know it's a lot of comparison, but I guess that's what it is.
[00:17:56] And basically, how much would you [00:18:00] do it for is what it comes down to and I guess that comes to a personal preference as well.
[00:18:05] Robert: Does it come back to working a little bit on that, knowing your cost of doing business? Knowing your cost of what your living expenses are, plus what you want to make, plus all those kind of things, did that ever come into your [00:18:15] calculations too?
[00:18:15] Katie Goldie: Yeah, I mean, not at first, like when I first started photography, I would do a lot of things for free. But I think everybody does when they first start out, because they're not really sure what they are or what they're doing yet. And I think that's perfectly acceptable to do some free work, to get some good [00:18:30] work under your belt, or do some low cost work.
[00:18:32] Just till you start getting a name for yourself, and then when you start to get that base, and you start having that portfolio to back up yourself, then you're able to start knowing what you're worth, [00:18:45] and you kind of base it off of other jobs, and I also base it off of clients.
[00:18:48] If I've got a small client that doesn't make a lot of money, or doesn't have a big budget for their fiscal, and I know that, I'm not going to charge them what a huge company, That makes billions of dollars is going to be able to [00:19:00] pay me. So it's like, sometimes I just have to base it off what that company can charge.
[00:19:04] And if that's still my worth, I'm not going to do it if it's still not worth my time. But it does come down to the things I never thought about when I would do these things for free is [00:19:15] how much does your camera gear cost? How much does your insurance cost? How much is your liability insurance?
[00:19:20] How much does it cost to travel to these places? Factor in the food, the accommodation, all the things it takes to get the shot and the client doesn't [00:19:30] either because they just think you're out there doing it on your own and it's your hobby and they kind of take advantage of that and I mean, I don't blame them, honestly.
[00:19:37] And a lot of young photographers are just out there having fun, and they're like, Oh, well, can you go shoot this jacket while you're out on your adventure? And, you know, back in the [00:19:45] day when I had a lot of energy, that was fine with me, but now it's like, no, I need to, make a bit of money. It takes a lot of effort.
[00:19:52] It takes away from my peace of my trip. It makes my trip about work, not about fun. And [00:20:00] I'm fine doing that, but what are you going to pay me for that? Is kind of what I come down to now. So. Yeah, it's not a no, but it's a, what can we arrange so that it's worth my time and worth your time, you know?
[00:20:12] Robert: Makes total sense. I think it's really important, one of the things you hit on there [00:20:15] is that doing commercial work... You do have to take into account the fact that say if you're shooting something for Adidas that one photo is probably gonna make them Substantially more the money than if you're shooting for like a local mom and pop shop.
[00:20:24] Yeah, and that you are helping them Massively by giving them that one image. So [00:20:30] charging the more is actually not a bad
[00:20:31] Katie Goldie: option for you Yeah, exactly more eyes are gonna see it. They're gonna be using it more places Basically, it's a base by base.
[00:20:38] I have a base rate, but I also have a base by base client rate, you know, like who's my client, you know, and a lot of [00:20:45] times, and I'll give you a nice little secret that's made me a lot of money in the, in the days, it's a good one, is you make them tell you what their budget is, you know, cause honestly, the moment you say what your budget is, you know, that's the rate.
[00:20:58] And that [00:21:00] could be thousands of dollars less than what they were prepared to pay you. And for, maybe a mom and pop shop maybe don't take advantage like that, but for a big company that can afford you and they have budget for you. Don't discredit what you're worth. And, you know, let them tell you what they're, they're [00:21:15] willing to pay you because they kind of will tell you what you're worth to them, you know.
[00:21:18] And most times, probably nine times out of ten, I was undercharging when I would ask them what was in their budget. And that saved me a lot of money, [00:21:30] because they had the budget for me, I just wasn't willing to push that rate because I was afraid that I would lose the job. So, sometimes it's good to just, if they will, sometimes they push it back on you, but if you can, ask them what they have budget for, for you.[00:21:45]
[00:21:45] Robert: How do you start the conversation? How would you go about that for somebody?
[00:21:49] Katie Goldie: Usually it starts with somebody asking me for something photo wise. They'll say, oh we're doing a campaign, or we're doing a shoot, and it's going to be three days. We're gonna try and make it an eight [00:22:00] hour day, might run over, we have models, this, this, this, and so they kind of give you the background and then they give you the asks, which is probably, you know, sometimes it's 10 to 15 photos per location, sometimes it's 10 to 15 photos per day, [00:22:15] and then I kind of go off a base day rate, in my own mind, that most companies can afford and that I feel is a fair rate for my time, and then they'll ask me, what would you say this would cost you [00:22:30] if you did three days and you gave us 30 photos?
[00:22:32] And then I would come back saying, well, my day rate is so and so, so for three days it would end up being this much, plus whatever traveling is that's on top of it, like, you would pay traveling expenses. [00:22:45] And then most of the times, they'll either, they can negotiate too, which is a great thing, because sometimes you don't want to lose the job.
[00:22:51] I mean, you know, you still could do it for a little less because freelance is all over the place, right? You could be not having very many jobs for a few months and [00:23:00] you need to do it for a little less to put food on your table that month. But then you can negotiate from there and they could say something like, oh wow, we can't afford that at all.
[00:23:08] And then you can be like, okay, well, I can't do it for that much less then, by the way they're sounding. Like, they're sounding like they [00:23:15] really can't even touch that kind of price. then maybe this isn't a good relationship for us. And if they're like, oh, well, could you cut it down to like, you know, 300 less a day?
[00:23:25] Then, you know, then you can decide, well, that's still worth my time, I'll do it, you know. [00:23:30] So it really just comes down to the negotiating factor. And keeping the conversation open. Don't just, close the conversation. Just say, well, this is what my normal day rate is. Let me know what your budget is.
[00:23:40] Is this within your budget? And if they come back saying, Oh, that's really out of our [00:23:45] budget. This is what we can afford. Then you can say, well, can we meet in the middle and go here? Or, you know, you can decide, Oh, well, actually, that's a good price too. So yeah, you just leave the conversation open and don't just shut the door on it if you still want the job.
[00:23:58] But yeah, that's my [00:24:00] best advice there.
[00:24:01] Robert: That's pretty good advice too, especially because so many people find so hard to talk about money.
[00:24:04] Katie Goldie: Yeah, I know. And don't be afraid. Don't be afraid. This is What it's about. You are being asked to do a service, you are talented, you have a gift of some sort.
[00:24:13] If you're in the photography world, [00:24:15] you usually don't. If you don't have a gift, you're not there yet, you know? The photography world is a very cruel place. You won't make it if you don't have a gift. And so, if you are getting asked by a client to shoot something, know that you have a gift. And, know that that's worth something.
[00:24:28] And they're not going to find it for [00:24:30] cheaper, trust me, unless, you know, you're charging crazy, but it's a good chance that you're charging what other photographers charge, so just know that this isn't unusual, or this isn't an outrageous thing you're asking, and don't be afraid to talk about money, because that's what [00:24:45] it's about, you're exchanging money for service, it's the same as if you were to buy a coffee, you have to give money to buy the coffee, there's no, there's no if, ands, or buts.
[00:24:54] You're not doing favors for anyone. Yeah, you're running a business, basically.
[00:24:59] Robert: Which I think a lot of [00:25:00] creatives need to, need to recognize, and it's the, the less fun stuff to talk about.
[00:25:03] Katie Goldie: It is less fun, and we're also so, fun and kind, and we're just doing what we love, so it doesn't feel like work, and so we kind of feel guilty when we charge for something, because we're like, well, this just doesn't feel like work, so...
[00:25:13] You know, why should I be [00:25:15] charging someone, you know, 2, 000 a day for, for 10 photos that I would do for free, but that's, that's not abnormal to do that, you know, that's not an abnormal day rate and you put a lot of work behind the computer too for those photos, so just know that that's what it's going to [00:25:30] cost, so yeah.
[00:25:31] Robert: I know one of the things that came up when we worked together on a shoot was that you actually took on The models, and you took on the mood board, and you took on a bunch of other things that people who aren't in the creative industry don't necessarily realize are hours upon hours of extra work as [00:25:45] well that you need to take into account, not just for that one day rate.
[00:25:47] Katie Goldie: Yeah, and you know what? That could give you an edge as a photographer too. I don't always provide the service of being a producer, but if I know that it will make the shoot a better shoot, and they don't have that service, [00:26:00] then I will offer it because not only is it going to make my job easier, but it's going to make...
[00:26:05] The shoot better, it's gonna make the photos better and it's gonna make you more sought after as a photographer because damn, she came prepared. She had her stuff together, she had her [00:26:15] models hired. She knew exactly where her locations were. She knew where the nearest hospital was. There was no you know, any kind of, there's a train.
[00:26:23] Yep. There was no, there was no messing around. There was no fiddling. And, you know, that comes from experience as well. [00:26:30] You have to go on a lot of shoots to have a lot of mishaps to understand what can go wrong. But, you know, being prepared is what you need to do. Awesome.
[00:26:38] Robert: I think we'll just wait a minute and let the train fly by and hang out in the trees.
[00:26:42] I'm learning a chunk of things. This is amazing.[00:26:45] I've been in this industry for a while and I still love
[00:26:47] Katie Goldie: this.
[00:26:48] It's actually kind of nice too. Cause I'm from, now I'm on the other side. I'm on the, the clients, I'm on the client side now. So it's like, I went from being hired to being the hirer.[00:27:00]
[00:27:00] So I see what I'm looking for now, and I'm seeing okay, I have a budget. I know what I can pay a photographer It's not personal for me. I can either pay them that or I can't you know So it's not a lot of times I would feel like this is personal when I would ask for [00:27:15] something like I would ask oh, I'm asking too much. They don't care.
[00:27:18] They're in a job. They're in a marketing. They've got budget for you You just have to ask what you're worth, and, and there's a good chance that's either in their budget or it's not, and it's not a personal thing, they either have the money or they don't, so, [00:27:30] and then you can negotiate, and that, it keeps it, the emotion out of it, it's not like you're asking for too much, it's, you know, this is just their job, and that's great to have that perspective of me now, because I've hired, you know, photographers and videographers now for my job, and being, [00:27:45] well, I really don't care what they ask for.
[00:27:47] You know, I either can hire them or I can't. I can afford them or I can't. And, and they can either do it or they don't, you know? So it's not a personal thing at all. And if it's somebody I really want, then I might find the room in my budget. So that's kind of [00:28:00] really fun, I've, like, switched sides now.
[00:28:02] Robert: So, yeah. Well, you've been able to cut out that emotional aspect of it, it's not your work anymore, which
[00:28:06] Katie Goldie: is kind of... Yeah, exactly. And it's also, like, I mean, I don't care if... If you're charging way more than I would have, I don't care, I just can't hire you, that's all. [00:28:15] or I just don't have the budget, or, oh, I really, really love your work and I know you'll do a fabulous job.
[00:28:20] You are a little bit more than I can afford, but I'm gonna pay it because I know that it'll get done the way I want it to. There's no person personal aspect to this, this is a very business [00:28:30] deal, you know? And I think that was my problem as a photographer a lot of times when I talked about money is I would often take it as a personal thing, like, oh, I can't ask too much because they'll think I'm way too expensive or something.
[00:28:40] They don't care. They just can or they can't afford you. They
[00:28:43] Robert: have a job. They'll figure it out. Keep [00:28:45] going. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Everyone
[00:28:46] Katie Goldie: just has some work to do. Yeah, so it's kind of fun being on the other side Sounds like the train's gone. Sounds like
[00:28:53] Robert: the train's gone. I'd actually love to talk a little bit about what you have learned on shoots for people who haven't necessarily had that chance to be [00:29:00] on a brand shoot or a commercial shoot or something.
[00:29:01] What's a, what's a couple pieces of, or pointers you could give people for that?
[00:29:04] Katie Goldie: It depends on the shoot. There's a lot of diversity in shoots. My most fun shoots, or the ones that I do enjoy the most, are pretty set up for me. They have a producer. [00:29:15] Or, you know, that's not even true, though, because I sometimes like producing my own shoots, too, because I get a lot more freedom.
[00:29:20] But the thing is, is when it's all produced for me, I just get to show up and shoot. And they have the models there, they have makeup artists, they have wardrobe, they have activities, [00:29:30] and I just get to create beautiful pieces of art, and find a fun way to do it. But then... When you have all that set up for you, it brings a lot of pressure to the game.
[00:29:39] 'cause you only have a minute amount of time. And then a lot of times on my shoots and a lot of [00:29:45] people, this is something to know for new photographers is a lot of clients will wanna put video on your shoots too because it makes sense. It's a lot more cost effective to have video and photo together.
[00:29:54] So do you know the videographer, are you going to work well with that dp? Are you [00:30:00] going to clash with them because they wanna get their shots? If you're on a shoot with a DP, I often like, talk to them, and I gain a understanding of, what do they see. Do they feel like [00:30:15] they are the priority, or am I the priority? And most times, I hate to say it in this changing world, most times video is priority for a lot of brands.
[00:30:23] So, you have to also talk to your client, because if your client is valuing photography over cinematography, [00:30:30] then you need to gauge that. So what I'll do is if it's... You know, video first and then photo, then I'll get video to get their shots first and then I'll say, can I step in and do that?
[00:30:41] So you got to find a way to work well with people around you because oftentimes [00:30:45] on shoots, you're not the only person shooting. And it's a cost effective way for businesses to get what they need. But you have to be able to work well with other people and they're trying to get their goals. They're trying to get their shots, and you're trying to get your [00:31:00] shots.
[00:31:00] So, sometimes things clash because, you know, there's a beautiful rainbow behind and who's going to get the shot for that, you know? So, you have to be able to be a little bit humble sometimes and step back and be like, Okay, I'm going to let video get this one. [00:31:15] And then, you're going to be like, you know, maybe if you're doing a look back really quick at your screen, maybe I can grab a couple photos.
[00:31:22] And communication is key. So... If I could give you another piece of advice when you're on a shoot and you've never been on one First first bit [00:31:30] is call him a cinematographer. Don't call him a videographer second bit is make sure that you are communicating a lot and communication is going to be your best friend because the DP is not [00:31:45] thinking about you.
[00:31:46] They're thinking about their shots. You're thinking about your shots And you need to communicate that to them because the goal is to get the best work for your client and to do your job. And at the end of the day, and I always say this, and [00:32:00] it's really important, it's your fault if you don't get the shot.
[00:32:03] So you can't blame the DP, you can't blame the crew, you can't blame the makeup artist who keeps jumping into the shot. You gotta be on top of things, you gotta say, hey, I need you to stay out of the shot for this [00:32:15] one, I need to get this shot. You need to get them all back to the same place that you were just in because they wrapped it and you're like, Well, you know what?
[00:32:22] I just looked at my stuff and I didn't get it. So we need to go back and do it. And you need to be really strong in whatever you're doing. You need to [00:32:30] really be strong in it because you can't be weak in this. You have to know that if you don't get those shots, that's on you. It's not on anyone else.
[00:32:37] And, and that is something that I really think is a strong piece of advice. Be nice about it. Don't be mean or horrible, but know that this [00:32:45] is your job and you need to achieve your job at any cost. And that might be an inconvenience to some people, but at the end of the day, it's gonna look really bad on you if you didn't do your job.
[00:32:55] So, yeah. You were hired for a reason. Step up for yourself. Yeah, exactly. You gotta step up and you, [00:33:00] and the client will appreciate this in the end. They may not appreciate hiking everyone up the mountain in that moment, but when they get the shots at the end of the day and they see that, You know, you really had nothing, but then you got something fabulous because you realized that you were shooting it wrong or maybe you were [00:33:15] just having an off day and you didn't have your settings right, you know, they're going to see that and they're going to be like, okay, you know, we paid thousands of dollars to set up this shoot thousands and we, we were left with something great, not nothing, you know, so, or not something [00:33:30] subpar and it, and that's the thing you have to be able to hold up to that kind of pressure too.
[00:33:35] So, yeah. Yeah. It's nice to take a break. Now that we talk about it, it's nice to not be in it sometimes. Cause it is a lot of pressure, but it's fun. Don't, don't be scared. It's fun. [00:33:45]
[00:33:45] Robert: It's like, it's great on the day of the shoot. It just sounds like a lot.
[00:33:48] Katie Goldie: It sounds like a lot, but honestly, the more you do it, the better you go.
[00:33:52] And that's why sometimes if you're starting out, doing lower priority shoots for lower cost is sometimes a great way to start out. There's lower [00:34:00] pressure on it, and you get the hang of it, and you run into these snags or these problems of like, Ooh, I really, I don't know why I had my ISO like that all day, but it really screwed up all my shots.
[00:34:10] You know, but at least... You can, look at that and learn from it. And if you're not shooting for a [00:34:15] huge client, for a big budget, then you, then you don't have as much pressure on you. And you can learn a little bit better and a little bit more relaxed in that regard.
[00:34:24] Robert: How do you address a situation like that when something does go sideways?
[00:34:28] Katie Goldie: Fortunately, [00:34:30] fortunately, I haven't felt like any of my shoots have gone sideways. So, there you go. That's amazing. So it's not that bad. Laughter So, maybe it's because I really advocate for myself on a shoot and I make sure that if I don't get the shot, I go for it.
[00:34:43] Yeah, so, I think [00:34:45] that I haven't really come into any problems with... I mean, there's always been bad weather days where we've had to cancel shoots, but it's not because of me. it's because the client says, No, we need to re shoot this because this is not the weather we want.
[00:34:57] Or, you know, and I feel bad for the client, because that's [00:35:00] a lot of money that goes down the drain for a shoot like that. But, I mean, I showed up. I was there to do my job. If they wanted to continue on and shoot in the weather, then I would be there to shoot in that weather. It's not like I'm holding anything back.
[00:35:11] So, I have to think of it in that way. Yeah, I [00:35:15] never... I've never gotten any negative feedback, thank God. But, I'm open to it, because you have to be open to it, because that's how you grow as a photographer. And you know what? And I really feel bad if I did have negative feedback, and people didn't bring it to my attention, [00:35:30] because that's how you learn.
[00:35:31] And as hard as it would have been to take it I do feel like it would have made me a better photographer. And often times, I won't get hired for another job, or... Something will happen and they use another photographer and I will email my [00:35:45] client and say hey I just wanted to make sure everything was good on our last shoot and I face it head on, I will deal with the the sadness of being rejected But I will face it head on and deal with that kind of a thing and and really feel them [00:36:00] out of why I didn't get hired again and Most times and this is the hardest part about being a photographer Most times it's because they want variety and, and that's a nice thing to go home with instead of thinking it's about you.
[00:36:11] It's really not. Most companies, they don't want the [00:36:15] same photos all the time. It's like listening to your same, music artist. All the time and it gets a little boring after a long time. So they want to mix it up. They want to use other talent. They want to support other photographers, which is great.
[00:36:28] I wouldn't have a job if they didn't do those sorts of [00:36:30] things. So, and then the client will come back around in a year or two and then they'll hire me again and I'll think, okay, I was just freaking out over nothing, you know? So yeah.
[00:36:38] Robert: Yeah, and I can attest to the fact that sometimes bad weather days happen and you just show up and kick ass like when it's minus 40 and it's snowing [00:36:45] and we're trying to shoot outdoor hot tubs.
[00:36:46] Katie Goldie: Yeah, we did our best on that one. And the photos turned out wonderfully. Yeah, they actually, the steam was very good on that day. And you know what, sometimes the worst weather is the best weather. I've done a lot of shoots where [00:37:00] the weather's look terrible and I have no other time to shoot it and I just go out there and shoot it anyway.
[00:37:04] And sometimes rain can make for the best, like most exquisite photos because people don't usually go out and get them. So they're more rare and they're more beautiful and, and so don't be afraid of the weather. [00:37:15] And, and be used to shooting in all kinds of weather. But I guess what it comes down to is it's the client's decision if they want to continue to shoot or not.
[00:37:21] And for instance, I did a paddleboarding shoot a few years ago that was in May and there was snow on the mountains. And the client was like, these [00:37:30] shots just don't look warm and inviting, so we need to reshoot this. And it wasn't my fault, it was the snow's fault. And all our models had goosebumps on them.
[00:37:40] So it's like, they had to redesign that shoot and they had to reshoot [00:37:45] it because of the weather. And, and you just go with it and I mean, I do a little yippee, I get paid twice kind of thing, but I mean, I'm not going to say no to another day of shooting, so but yeah, that's kind of how, how you kind of go about those kind of days.
[00:37:58] Robert: Fabulous. That's a lot of really heavy, [00:38:00] brand conversation that we've had for a long time, so I'd actually, I'd love to get into a little bit more of the lighter side of photography and just kind of the fun, like, do you have a fun story or a fun moment from one of the shoots you've been on that you'd love to share with us?
[00:38:10] Katie Goldie: There's been, great moments. I was in Namibia once, [00:38:15] and I, I really just wanted to get an orcs.
[00:38:18] They're a really beautiful antelope behind a sand dune, like a lot of other photos I've seen. And I just wanted something really... just wanted that photo that everybody gets, you know, and sometimes you get caught in this, copying [00:38:30] mode where you want to have what other people have for where their travels.
[00:38:34] And I actually got something much better, because there was one standing under a tree, and I didn't love that it was standing under the tree because it was in the shade. And I was like, well, I can't, get it out of the shade. But, I walked [00:38:45] up, within a safe distance of it, and it stepped back into the sun, and so half of it was in this, Almost like a spider web of shade branches and it looked so cool on its distinctive features And it was just the most Contrasted image I've ever [00:39:00] taken and I have to say that was a really standout ish moment in my career. Something I would just never shoot before and it was just so artful, if that makes sense.
[00:39:10] It just looked so cool because the lines were so distinct on [00:39:15] the orcs and on the shadows and it just worked really well. Like it's a very favorable picture. So yeah. That's
[00:39:22] Robert: so cool. Don't you love those moments when you're out shooting somewhere that's pretty iconic, like Lake Louise Moraine Lake, wherever, like those iconic places and you find something
[00:39:29] Katie Goldie: new.
[00:39:29] [00:39:30] Oh totally, yeah. I mean, that's the goal nowadays, there's so hard to find things that are new, everybody's shooting everything. And that's the other thing, is I will scroll endlessly, and see other creative work, and I'll be like, Wow, how did they think of that? And then you gotta get out of your head a [00:39:45] bit, Well, you know, you're a good photographer too, but, yeah, it definitely gets to your head of like, wow.
[00:39:49] Those people are so creative. They have so much talent, and I have been really fortunate to shoot with really creative people The last trip I just did to Saudi Arabia. I was [00:40:00] shooting with Jason Charleston Hill and Hello Emily is her name on Instagram, but two very ionic Instagrammers very good photographers. One of the photographers I looked to for such a long time was Jason and being able [00:40:15] to shoot with him and see his style and how he shoots, and I don't ever think he took off his 28 70 and he just shot long, all the time.
[00:40:23] And I was like the opposite, I shoot 16 35. So it was just so interesting to see. He just has [00:40:30] such a different shooting style and so beautiful, so unique. If you've ever seen his work, check him out. His name is Jason Charleston Hill. And Hello Emily. They're very popular on Instagram. You might even follow them.
[00:40:40] And we'll throw their stuff in the show notes so people can find it. Yeah, yeah, they're great. I mean, there's hundreds of [00:40:45] others. Oh yeah. I started shooting with Cal Snape. He was a really big part of my career at the beginning. Really taught me most things I know about photography. So I have to shout him out because he's a fabulous photographer.
[00:40:57] Yeah, just so many people in the industry that have [00:41:00] sculpted my creativity over time and have inspired me. And I think that's really what you need to do if you're an inspiring photographer is find those people that really drive you and push you. And maybe you feel like you compare yourself to them, but they also drive you to be that good, you know?
[00:41:14] So I think [00:41:15] that's a really positive, but also don't get too stuck in your head about it kind of thing. Yeah.
[00:41:21] Robert: I love what you've been sharing and I love everything you've been adding to people. I've never had someone on talk about the business side of photography like that.
[00:41:26] Oh wow, okay. That's great. Which is great. So yeah, no, we've had lots of other [00:41:30] things, but that's beautiful and fantastic, so I appreciate it. Oh great, well
[00:41:31] Katie Goldie: I'm really glad. Yeah. Yeah. I hope that people could learn something and I hope I was accurate about everything I could be. At least to my experience.
[00:41:39] Robert: Do you want to share anything else with people that we didn't get to talk to that we didn't get to lean into at all about how you built your following on Instagram and kind of how that came [00:41:45] about, but I know there's so much more we could talk about today. Oh yeah. Is there anything you want to, you want to kind of share?
[00:41:50] Katie Goldie: No, I think, I mean, to leave the note high, I just say, you know, follow, follow your passion, and if it's something you really want to do and you really aspire to and it's something that, [00:42:00] You know, you feel super passionate about it, and you feel like you have a space in the game here, then go for it, because there is space for people.
[00:42:07] It is a very fun, very amazing career. My mom has said that I have lived her life seven [00:42:15] times over. You often get to live this fantasy life, and it's beautiful. I guess the only thing I didn't really share is the fact that it's okay to step back, too.
[00:42:24] If you have been in freelance for a while it, it ends up being a lot, and you do need creative [00:42:30] breaks, and it's okay to feel uncreative sometimes, and sometimes you just want stability of a normal job, and that's totally fine, too. And... A lot of people I know just want to take photography as a hobby, so that's totally fine too, and you could still [00:42:45] do the occasional job, and you're still, you're still a photographer, you know, so,
[00:42:49] Robert: yeah.
[00:42:49] You don't have to commoditize every bit of your art form. Exactly. As much as the world seems to tell us that we have to.
[00:42:53] Katie Goldie: Especially if you enjoy what you're doing. I will give you full disclosure. Shooting is not nearly as fun as [00:43:00] it used to be for me because it does feel like work and it's because I've done so much.
[00:43:04] I still love it. I'll still pick up a camera when it's for a job and even when I'm out but it just becomes a little bit harder to pick up the camera nowadays. Or like pack it in my backpack when I'm on a long hike because I just [00:43:15] want to relax. I don't want it to feel like work. And so be willing to lose that, that joy of it in a little way if you do take this on as a full time thing.
[00:43:23] Just know that that could be a side effect of it, but you know what? I still love to shoot and even [00:43:30] I have a normal job now In marketing and I still get to shoot a bit for that and it's my favorite part of my job still Is being able to pick up my camera when you know, I've been sitting at the computer for too long.
[00:43:43] Robert: Beautiful [00:43:45] Where can people? Find you where can people kind of ask you questions if they
[00:43:48] Katie Goldie: want to or anything? Yeah, so you can find me on Instagram. My handle is goldie katie underscore and from there, you'll find my website katiegoldiefoto. com and you'll see my commercial work on [00:44:00] there and From there.
[00:44:02] Yeah, you can pretty much email me from my Instagram thing. If you have any questions Yeah, feel free.
[00:44:07] Robert: Thank you so much, Katie. I so appreciate you doing this.
[00:44:09] And it's awesome, and it's great to see you again. Yeah,
[00:44:12] Katie Goldie: I really appreciate you feeling that I'm [00:44:15] talented enough to do that.
[00:44:16] Robert: You are certainly talented enough. You're an amazing creative. Oh, thank you.
[00:44:19] Katie. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast day, I had a fantastic time on our walk and getting to learn [00:44:30] so much from you. I really appreciate you taking this time. And I hope that everybody goes out there. Gives Katie a follow on Instagram and just reaches out and says, thanks. If you learned anything from this episode, or if you were inspired at all by her fantastic creativity, give her a follow for sure. Her adventures are [00:44:45] spectacular out here in this beautiful, beautiful Banff.
[00:44:48] Reach out, let me know what you think of this episode, or let me know if there's anything you want to talk about, or if there's anything you want to learn about, reach out. Find me on Instagram at Robert Massey photography, or find me on my website@robertmasseyphotography.ca. [00:45:00] All right. Thank you so much, everybody have a wonderful week and get out there and adventure in this big, beautiful world of ours. Bye for now.